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	<title>Comments on: Child porn: real or virtual? A day in the burbs and the forensics conference</title>
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	<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/</link>
	<description>Sex pol, borders, Mexico, Yiddish, my camera</description>
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		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/comment-page-1/#comment-3152</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debbienathan.com/?p=158#comment-3152</guid>
		<description>I find the comment regarding crafting legislation to shift the burden of proof to the accused and to further craft legislation to criminalize an act of speech through legislation designed to &#039;side-step&#039; the Constitution more disturbing than the advance in technology that might make digitally or even mechanically crafted analogs to organic beings more &#039;real&#039;.

If pornography, of any sort, is crime, then it is thought crime.  Can we afford to take this dangerous step?  Should we ban Voltaire?  What of Blackstone.  Obviously, Benthan has won that debate.  If Blackstone goes, what of Locke.

No one condones harm to children and other living things.  No one, except governments who send children off to die to further their political aims and brand the harm as &#039;collateral&#039; damage.

If there is to be Freedom of Speech, the freedom must be in the words and not in the speech.  You do not write to defend child pornography, you write to defend Freedom of Speech and war has taught is that invasion must be stopped before the enemy, backed by its armada, must be halted before the first step is taken on the beach.  If you do not believe that, ask the citizens of Illium.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find the comment regarding crafting legislation to shift the burden of proof to the accused and to further craft legislation to criminalize an act of speech through legislation designed to &#8217;side-step&#8217; the Constitution more disturbing than the advance in technology that might make digitally or even mechanically crafted analogs to organic beings more &#8216;real&#8217;.</p>
<p>If pornography, of any sort, is crime, then it is thought crime.  Can we afford to take this dangerous step?  Should we ban Voltaire?  What of Blackstone.  Obviously, Benthan has won that debate.  If Blackstone goes, what of Locke.</p>
<p>No one condones harm to children and other living things.  No one, except governments who send children off to die to further their political aims and brand the harm as &#8216;collateral&#8217; damage.</p>
<p>If there is to be Freedom of Speech, the freedom must be in the words and not in the speech.  You do not write to defend child pornography, you write to defend Freedom of Speech and war has taught is that invasion must be stopped before the enemy, backed by its armada, must be halted before the first step is taken on the beach.  If you do not believe that, ask the citizens of Illium.</p>
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		<title>By: Molly Toff</title>
		<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/comment-page-1/#comment-3028</link>
		<dc:creator>Molly Toff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debbienathan.com/?p=158#comment-3028</guid>
		<description>A couple thoughts:

(1) Spurious &quot;It&#039;s CGI!&quot; defenses can be avoided by making the CGI defense &quot;affirmative&quot;; that is, if the defense wants to claim that an image is CGI, it has to prove it.  The government would not normally have to prove that it&#039;s real.  Or, better:

(2) A photo of a real child can be so digitally distorted that it is unrecognizable as that child.  But if it is made into pornography the child was still exploited.  Likewise, illegal CGI images involve real children even if an image is not of any single child, because the knowledge of what a child looks like is taken from all the children the CGI-er has ever seen.  They have all been exploited.  (Explicitly so if the image is based on a &quot;composite&quot;of real children.)  Congress should make this reasoning a legislate &quot;finding&quot; and re-pass the anti-CGI CP law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple thoughts:</p>
<p>(1) Spurious &#8220;It&#8217;s CGI!&#8221; defenses can be avoided by making the CGI defense &#8220;affirmative&#8221;; that is, if the defense wants to claim that an image is CGI, it has to prove it.  The government would not normally have to prove that it&#8217;s real.  Or, better:</p>
<p>(2) A photo of a real child can be so digitally distorted that it is unrecognizable as that child.  But if it is made into pornography the child was still exploited.  Likewise, illegal CGI images involve real children even if an image is not of any single child, because the knowledge of what a child looks like is taken from all the children the CGI-er has ever seen.  They have all been exploited.  (Explicitly so if the image is based on a &#8220;composite&#8221;of real children.)  Congress should make this reasoning a legislate &#8220;finding&#8221; and re-pass the anti-CGI CP law.</p>
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		<title>By: Blue Sun</title>
		<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/comment-page-1/#comment-3003</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue Sun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debbienathan.com/?p=158#comment-3003</guid>
		<description>In 1967, documentarian Frederick Wiseman made a film called &#039;Titicut Follies,&#039; about the conditions (including patient abuse and full frontal nudity) that took place in a state hospital for the criminally insane in Bridgewater, Massachusetts.  There were, of course, numerous attempts to suppress the film.

At one point, after the film had been screened at a Massachusetts legislative hearing, one legislator denounced the film and said that he didn&#039;t see that anybody could watch this film without being debased and corrupted.  Another legislator promptly stood up and suggested that the entire legislature, having just watched film, were now debased and corrupted and should resign en masse.  LOL</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In 1967, documentarian Frederick Wiseman made a film called &#8216;Titicut Follies,&#8217; about the conditions (including patient abuse and full frontal nudity) that took place in a state hospital for the criminally insane in Bridgewater, Massachusetts.  There were, of course, numerous attempts to suppress the film.</p>
<p>At one point, after the film had been screened at a Massachusetts legislative hearing, one legislator denounced the film and said that he didn&#8217;t see that anybody could watch this film without being debased and corrupted.  Another legislator promptly stood up and suggested that the entire legislature, having just watched film, were now debased and corrupted and should resign en masse.  LOL</p>
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		<title>By: David K</title>
		<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/comment-page-1/#comment-3004</link>
		<dc:creator>David K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 18:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debbienathan.com/?p=158#comment-3004</guid>
		<description>&quot;One thing is certain: if something becomes possible for human beings to do, someone will do it.&quot;

Enter the idea of cloning for porn...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;One thing is certain: if something becomes possible for human beings to do, someone will do it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Enter the idea of cloning for porn&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Forest</title>
		<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/comment-page-1/#comment-3005</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Forest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debbienathan.com/?p=158#comment-3005</guid>
		<description>CG is moving ahead in leaps and bounds.  Debbie, your work is exemplary!  I suspect that the estates of old and dearly departed actors will soon find a new source of revenue.  You just take a huge sample of John Wayne scenes and paint the skin with real images from film. Combine with a huge audio sample lexicon, composite into our new cowboy, render forever and have the &quot;real&quot; John Wayne back in film.  We won&#039;t need any of them new-fangled sissy action stars anymore - all movies can then be John Wayne movies.  Ah.  The march of technology. Gotta love it.

I should have taken the blue pill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CG is moving ahead in leaps and bounds.  Debbie, your work is exemplary!  I suspect that the estates of old and dearly departed actors will soon find a new source of revenue.  You just take a huge sample of John Wayne scenes and paint the skin with real images from film. Combine with a huge audio sample lexicon, composite into our new cowboy, render forever and have the &#8220;real&#8221; John Wayne back in film.  We won&#8217;t need any of them new-fangled sissy action stars anymore &#8211; all movies can then be John Wayne movies.  Ah.  The march of technology. Gotta love it.</p>
<p>I should have taken the blue pill.</p>
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		<title>By: Fima Fimovich</title>
		<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/comment-page-1/#comment-3006</link>
		<dc:creator>Fima Fimovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 04:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debbienathan.com/?p=158#comment-3006</guid>
		<description>The situation here remind me situation in USSR, when communist reporter wrote article about Orwell 1984.
This was crime to possess this book, and nobody could read it. So reporter wrote: I did not read this book, but everybody know this is very bad. The same is with C. porn.
Somebody who just viewed it are guilty of very serious crime,
almost same with terrorism. Are you sure there are this kind porn as government describe. I have never seen something like
department of justice are talking about</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The situation here remind me situation in USSR, when communist reporter wrote article about Orwell 1984.<br />
This was crime to possess this book, and nobody could read it. So reporter wrote: I did not read this book, but everybody know this is very bad. The same is with C. porn.<br />
Somebody who just viewed it are guilty of very serious crime,<br />
almost same with terrorism. Are you sure there are this kind porn as government describe. I have never seen something like<br />
department of justice are talking about</p>
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		<title>By: Fima Fimovich</title>
		<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/comment-page-1/#comment-3007</link>
		<dc:creator>Fima Fimovich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 04:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debbienathan.com/?p=158#comment-3007</guid>
		<description>This is not true that 99% of journalists never write about child po..n in non witch hunt way

http://estrinyefim.newsvine.com/_news/2007/06/23/798199-internet-porn-hysteria

The problem here I can see, nobody should be prosecuted for having any digital pictures,
This is just stupid, similar with witch hunts
from last century.
But now they are much better prepared.
Here is what they want to do in the nearest future

http://www.ifeminists.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.185

It seems for me that Debby are trying to justify
this modern porn war.
I do not understand that</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is not true that 99% of journalists never write about child po..n in non witch hunt way</p>
<p><a href="http://estrinyefim.newsvine.com/_news/2007/06/23/798199-internet-porn-hysteria" rel="nofollow">http://estrinyefim.newsvine.com/_news/2007/06/23/798199-internet-porn-hysteria</a></p>
<p>The problem here I can see, nobody should be prosecuted for having any digital pictures,<br />
This is just stupid, similar with witch hunts<br />
from last century.<br />
But now they are much better prepared.<br />
Here is what they want to do in the nearest future</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ifeminists.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.185" rel="nofollow">http://www.ifeminists.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.185</a></p>
<p>It seems for me that Debby are trying to justify<br />
this modern porn war.<br />
I do not understand that</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/comment-page-1/#comment-3009</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debbienathan.com/?p=158#comment-3009</guid>
		<description>And She Was said &quot;and I guess that is why, though I’m stunned and fascinated by your article, I am reluctant to link to it. Because as you said, if something becomes possible for human beings to do, someone will do it. And the more people who find out about it, the more people there is to be tempted to do it - especially if this is a potential money-making venture.&quot;

This is exactly the thought process that gets the public to allow the government to revoke individual rights of privacy and person. Failed logic tells them that it will prevent crimes that there is NO evidence will be committed. Yes, there is NO evidence for it. There is, in fact, evidence that when some taboo is no longer suppressed and forced underground, that less of it occurs than did when suppressed. This is true for drugs, sexually explicit materials, and several other taboos here in the USA. This does indeed tend to support the thought that not suppressing child pornography where no child is involved would then decrease ACTUAL child pornography.

This logic is further supported by other logic. Simply telling a child &quot;don&#039;t touch, it&#039;s hot&quot; will ensure that they experience the pain of a burn more likely than not. If you remove the taboo of &#039;forbidden&#039; then it loses allure for some people. When it becomes &#039;no big deal&#039; in the eyes of most, just a weirdness that some people have, only those suffering will partake of it.

Midget sex is a fetish. Did the existence of more midget sex cause a jump in those collecting it? Or is nobody tracking the same effects in other things?

My apologies if I seem to ramble. Does beer lead to heroin? Is CG child porn a gateway activity? Prove it. I&#039;d like to see the proof please. Prove that violent video games leads to violent teens? It does the opposite according to recent studies. Does fantasy role playing lead to the inability to deal with real life issues? Someone please prove it and show evidence.

The existence of constitutionally guaranteed speech has not led to riots, so how does CG child porn supposedly lead to actual child pornography and more importantly child sexual abuse?

Does watching infidelity on television lead to real life infidelities? Copycats of such things tend to be people who would make poor decisions in the first place. The percentage of copycats per 1000 people does not increase with greater awareness.

Basically I&#039;m saying that those who would punish all who possess even one image of child pornography are using failed logic to remove yours and my rights. The danger of this is clear: you are safe until you are found guilty of possessing or doing something that &#039;they&#039; believe to be bad. Today it&#039;s child pornography; what will it be next month? Next year?

I do NOT condone child sexual abuse. I also do not condone the abuse our system rains down on those who have harmed no other human being.

Yes, it takes discussion and even argument to arrive at sound public opinion regarding these sometimes confusing gray areas. Should it be kept in secret and only discussed by judges and lawyers we would be abrogating our rights as citizens to help define what is &#039;public decency&#039; and what is not. If you surrender those rights and responsibilities, perhaps you don&#039;t deserve them in the first place?

So, keep writing and discussing. It IS your duty as journalist and citizen.

I believe in the Constitution and the rights it guarantees me, and I blatantly oppose those who would have me surrender those rights, even if I choose not to use them in confusing gray ways.

It is not just free speech, it is about defining public decency and what is not. It is about defining how cruel a community we wish to be, and how cruel we would treat those who are &#039;not like us&#039; in some small way.

The scope and breadth of human sexuality is far more than the missionary position once per year in the darkness. It&#039;s time that we began exploring it correctly, adding more definition to what is normal, and what is not. It&#039;s time we stop punishing people as evil doers and start treating them like fellow humans. Let us not forget that the same group of men and women who would vote on such laws are the same group who not so long ago were found guilty of ignoring the existence of, or participating in the use of children for sexual pleasure in WASHINGTON D.C. of all places. Yes, that got brushed under the carpet quickly and never gets brought up during such discussions. Elected officials seem to have a penchant for doing things that are illegal but making laws to prohibit such activities.

Glass houses and throwing the first stone etc.

Keep writing. MORE people need to think about what is right, not fewer. Those that look askance of you, well, explain that their reluctance to write about it is a sign of their weakness, not a sign of not wanting to support perversions.

If soldiers did not kill (something they should not like doing) then armies would be useless. What kind of pen wielding soldier claims fear of the war they chose as a profession?

Keep writing. Bravely so. Thank you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And She Was said &#8220;and I guess that is why, though I’m stunned and fascinated by your article, I am reluctant to link to it. Because as you said, if something becomes possible for human beings to do, someone will do it. And the more people who find out about it, the more people there is to be tempted to do it &#8211; especially if this is a potential money-making venture.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is exactly the thought process that gets the public to allow the government to revoke individual rights of privacy and person. Failed logic tells them that it will prevent crimes that there is NO evidence will be committed. Yes, there is NO evidence for it. There is, in fact, evidence that when some taboo is no longer suppressed and forced underground, that less of it occurs than did when suppressed. This is true for drugs, sexually explicit materials, and several other taboos here in the USA. This does indeed tend to support the thought that not suppressing child pornography where no child is involved would then decrease ACTUAL child pornography.</p>
<p>This logic is further supported by other logic. Simply telling a child &#8220;don&#8217;t touch, it&#8217;s hot&#8221; will ensure that they experience the pain of a burn more likely than not. If you remove the taboo of &#8216;forbidden&#8217; then it loses allure for some people. When it becomes &#8216;no big deal&#8217; in the eyes of most, just a weirdness that some people have, only those suffering will partake of it.</p>
<p>Midget sex is a fetish. Did the existence of more midget sex cause a jump in those collecting it? Or is nobody tracking the same effects in other things?</p>
<p>My apologies if I seem to ramble. Does beer lead to heroin? Is CG child porn a gateway activity? Prove it. I&#8217;d like to see the proof please. Prove that violent video games leads to violent teens? It does the opposite according to recent studies. Does fantasy role playing lead to the inability to deal with real life issues? Someone please prove it and show evidence.</p>
<p>The existence of constitutionally guaranteed speech has not led to riots, so how does CG child porn supposedly lead to actual child pornography and more importantly child sexual abuse?</p>
<p>Does watching infidelity on television lead to real life infidelities? Copycats of such things tend to be people who would make poor decisions in the first place. The percentage of copycats per 1000 people does not increase with greater awareness.</p>
<p>Basically I&#8217;m saying that those who would punish all who possess even one image of child pornography are using failed logic to remove yours and my rights. The danger of this is clear: you are safe until you are found guilty of possessing or doing something that &#8216;they&#8217; believe to be bad. Today it&#8217;s child pornography; what will it be next month? Next year?</p>
<p>I do NOT condone child sexual abuse. I also do not condone the abuse our system rains down on those who have harmed no other human being.</p>
<p>Yes, it takes discussion and even argument to arrive at sound public opinion regarding these sometimes confusing gray areas. Should it be kept in secret and only discussed by judges and lawyers we would be abrogating our rights as citizens to help define what is &#8216;public decency&#8217; and what is not. If you surrender those rights and responsibilities, perhaps you don&#8217;t deserve them in the first place?</p>
<p>So, keep writing and discussing. It IS your duty as journalist and citizen.</p>
<p>I believe in the Constitution and the rights it guarantees me, and I blatantly oppose those who would have me surrender those rights, even if I choose not to use them in confusing gray ways.</p>
<p>It is not just free speech, it is about defining public decency and what is not. It is about defining how cruel a community we wish to be, and how cruel we would treat those who are &#8216;not like us&#8217; in some small way.</p>
<p>The scope and breadth of human sexuality is far more than the missionary position once per year in the darkness. It&#8217;s time that we began exploring it correctly, adding more definition to what is normal, and what is not. It&#8217;s time we stop punishing people as evil doers and start treating them like fellow humans. Let us not forget that the same group of men and women who would vote on such laws are the same group who not so long ago were found guilty of ignoring the existence of, or participating in the use of children for sexual pleasure in WASHINGTON D.C. of all places. Yes, that got brushed under the carpet quickly and never gets brought up during such discussions. Elected officials seem to have a penchant for doing things that are illegal but making laws to prohibit such activities.</p>
<p>Glass houses and throwing the first stone etc.</p>
<p>Keep writing. MORE people need to think about what is right, not fewer. Those that look askance of you, well, explain that their reluctance to write about it is a sign of their weakness, not a sign of not wanting to support perversions.</p>
<p>If soldiers did not kill (something they should not like doing) then armies would be useless. What kind of pen wielding soldier claims fear of the war they chose as a profession?</p>
<p>Keep writing. Bravely so. Thank you</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/comment-page-1/#comment-3008</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debbienathan.com/?p=158#comment-3008</guid>
		<description>Interesting reading.  I don&#039;t know what to think about the legality CG child porn... after all it could be either a positive (by allowing pedophiles an outlet that doesn&#039;t directly hurt anyone) or a negative (by encouraging pedophilic tendencies).

I&#039;ll definitely be watching the news for interesting writeups such as this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting reading.  I don&#8217;t know what to think about the legality CG child porn&#8230; after all it could be either a positive (by allowing pedophiles an outlet that doesn&#8217;t directly hurt anyone) or a negative (by encouraging pedophilic tendencies).</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll definitely be watching the news for interesting writeups such as this.</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://debbienathan.com/2008/04/a-day-with-the-csi-folks-talking-about-virtual-child-porn/comment-page-1/#comment-3011</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debbienathan.com/?p=158#comment-3011</guid>
		<description>Thanks for taking the time to expose the witchhunt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for taking the time to expose the witchhunt.</p>
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